Churches Education Commission Rebrands to “Launchpad” in 2019

20 Comments

1. well at least CEC are actively proactive about helping to make a difference. whether you admit it or not Christianity has and does society better. Education, Health, science, government, social justice issues-were founded be Christianity. Civilized New Zealand happened because of Christianity.
   If a person chooses to be atheist and teach their children to be atheist it’s their choice. No one In CEC/Launchpad is making anyone choose to believe in God. But you have to admit that the golden rule, respect for others, are all values that come from the Bible. Jesus never forced any one to follow him, and neither do Christians.
   But if you were in a desert dying of thirst and came across someone who knew where to get water wouldn’t you expect them to tell you? Wouldn’t you think they were selfish if they with hold vital information to your very existence?
   You can dent Jesus Christ as much as you like, but maybe the real question you have to ask is God reveal yourself to me personally? Every person who has had a personal revelation of God cannot help but follow Him and tell others of this Truth, If you don’t then it’s your lose. Being open minded enough to ask God to reveal Himself to you you have nothing to loose.

   • Hi Cat,

     Thanks for commenting. I think that your comments need to be put into the correct context. This is the context of children being taught in a secular state primary school.

     The historic impact of Christianity has nothing to do with whether or not children should be indoctrinated into Christian religious faith in their non-religious school. In other words, I’m not suggesting that religious instruction is wrong because of the torture and terror that Christians spread through the Spanish Inquisition. That would be ridiculous. And likewise, it is ridiculous to suggest religious instruction is appropriate because some other Christians did some good things.

     This issue rests on principles. Either it is principled to promote religious faith in a secular state school or it is not. The word “secular” should really give away the answer. If not, then consider whose religious faith should be promoted? Your version of Christianity? Someone else’s? We have a more diverse society where non-religious people are now the majority, so perhaps we should teach that there is no god? Christians have long called for “votes” to justify a majority of people wanting their religion taught but as Christian affiliation declines, I suspect that a majority imposing their beliefs on a minority would suddenly seem unfair to you! This is why we shouldn’t promote any religious views in schools. Children should be educated, not indoctrinated.

     Saying that “No one In CEC/Launchpad is making anyone choose to believe in God” is misleading, because encouraging belief in a Christian god is most certainly their goal. No, “the golden rule and respect for others” are not values that come from the Bible. They are values that are in the Bible (although some would want to debate that). The golden rule was well known in many cultures long before Christianity got to them. Respect for others is also another Human value. We do not need your religion in order to teach our children values. Ironically, you are insulting the parents who you expect to give you access to their children. Not very “respectful”.

     I have no interest in your god. If you want your children to believe the same things you do, go to church. Do not expect your church to get access to our children while they are supposed to be safe from religious pressures in their school. It is predatory and unethical.

     • “Being taught in a secular state primary school”. The Schools are all officially closed.
       For many it is lunch time.
       Just because the publically funded school building are used to teach this Values education programme does not make it “Part of any schools cirrululum” ?

       You made to statement which are not true Dave
       Those who do not believe in a God are not the Majority.
       and yes in a democracy the majority do rule in the best interests of everybody.

       Next time you or your children are lied to, your car is stolen broken into, your house burgled, your fence graffitied, you are assaulted by a drunk or you go to a funeral where someone committed suicide REMEMBER that you Dave out of bitterness and unforgiveness vermently refused this person the possibility of learning any respect for the others or their things.

       and respect for all knowing all seeing, God who loves and cares about them enough to personally demonstrate the way life should be lived.

       Dave

       • I would say that it’s extremely disingenuous to rely on a technical claim of “the school is closed”. It’s like seeing someone drop their wallet and keeping it because “technically, they lost it”. Also, the irony of this argument being used to justify a “values class” should not be ignored.

         For some, it is lunchtime. For most, it is morning or afternoon. Regardless, why should any religious group be able to promote their beliefs to children at lunchtime? Would promotional weekly visits by political party members be ok too?

         Regarding majorities, I should have said “non-Christian”. However, your claim that “…in a democracy the majority do rule in the best interests of everybody” is obviously not true. They rule, but not necessarily in the interests of everybody. That is why attention to human rights is important. We should not vote to remove other people’s human rights, which is what happens when a board votes to close a secular school to promote a religion.

2. The Bible in schools parent based “Out of school time” i.e. when it is officially “closed” programme is second only to Remedial Reading in the voluntary hours of parent teaching involvement in our schools. Many who run the programme are fully trained teachers or church trained Sunday School teachers and Youth Group leaders. They are in my experience having participated for ten years while full time farming fine examples of kind, caring, thoughtful, inclusive, tolerant excellent adult role models. It is run to a very high standard as there is lots of intense hours of training modules to complete for the churches education commission, done in ones own time and at ones own expense.

   Where else do our children learn to apoliguise, be thankful, to care for others, look at the wonder of life, the universe and everything.
   Where do they learn that life has a purpose and plan, everything is brilliantly and intelligently made and designed.
   I’m loved even if my parents die, I’m loved.
   Why should I not steal?, lie? , covet and desire what others have?
   What helps them deal with violent, hurtful thoughts?, depression and suicidal thoughts?
   How do I deal with Dark music, Dark video games, Alcohol, Gambling, Drugs, Pornography, is Promiscuity God’s plan for us?
   These things which try to get me addicted, High jack my life and ultimately steal my joy for living.

   It is twenty weeks of some of the best wholesome knowledge, spiritual input and life skills that kids can ever get.

   I have been at so many tragic funerals of “Secular” kids who sadly took their own lives, but I have never been at one for a kid that was taught Bible in Schools, certainly not on my watch.

   We can either have a “Policeman in everyone’s head….or one on ever street corner”.
   It’s a lot cheaper and more productive to sharpen and awaken the conscience,
   pay for more police, courts, judges, than to build heaps more prisons and lock up otherwise productive adults.

   I would hesit to say this is THE BEST PROGRAMME RUN IN SCHOOLS WITH THE MOST BENEFITS TO OUR CHILDREN and GRANDCHILDREN.

   I taught it for ten years because I believed it can and did make a wonderful difference in the lives of Geraldine children and our wonderful community.

   What gives a few Rich Secular Athiest Pagan Believers of SEN, the right to steal such a wonderful free voluntary
   “out of school time” programme from NZ parents and their children? Parents should be demanding that these programmers are not only provided but that the state provide a contribution in the interests of community building, Justice prevention and mental health prevention programs.

   kind Regards

   Dave Stanton

   • Hi Dave,

     Thanks for taking the time to comment. You are right that the classes are “technically” out of school time. However, the reality is that most of these classes are run in normal school hours when children would normally be learning the official curriculum. My own girls have to come late to school on a Tuesday to avoid the 9.00am to 9.30 am class. They are then told to walk to the school office to sign themselves in as the school roll was taken just before the bible class. This is one of several ways that children are “othered” by religious instruction.

     I appreciate that some of the bible teachers are ex-teachers or youth workers but I don’t see how that impacts on the principle of the right to secular education. Do you think that these same people would be willing to come and teach a values class without any reference to their religious faith? That way, the classes would be welcoming and inclusive to all children and families and there would be no reason for anyone to opt-out. What a wonderful, truly unbiased, altruistic, community involvement that would be! If you don’t think they would do that, why not?

     We agree that there is a need for values teaching. I’ll go further and say that children should be taught philosophy, civics, critical thinking and empathy. Is there any reason that we can’t teach these things without your religious faith being promoted as well?

     • That is the problem a Secular Society has Dave, there is no basis for saying this is right ? or good ? or why?

       Like You shouldn’t steal other people’s stuff?
       Why Not? ” I want it, They have more than me, I need it, I missed out, I need the money for drugs, I like their stuff, it’s easy, I’m smart, they will never catch me. ”

       How would you feel if they stole your stuff ? “I don’t care”

       Well you wouldn’t like them stealing your stuff,
       “They can go ahead I got nothink, anyway”

       I’ve worked with Maori At Risk kids whose parents were in the Black Power and Mungrel Mob
       and they don’t care a damn thing about what your “Secular Society Values”. But they do have a conscience and they like us all get the conviction of God on them when they steal even if no one was there to see it….and that is the only thing that is going to eventually stop them and turn their lives around for good.

       You are free to deny your kids …. (I just hope and pray you don’t live to regret it) but Dave don’t deny the other kids who grow up with no boundaries, no guidance or no critical thinking, no morals and a strong likelihood they will end up following their parents into prison without them. These are the parents who won’t get around to filling out the form to say they can go and learn those things, and the same kids you’ll be attending the ‘family group conference’ with cause your stuff got nicked or car vandalized.

       Dave

       • Now you’re veering off into moral philosophy. Your claim is that morality comes from your god. I would say that morality naturally evolved and is still evolving based on an understanding of how our actions affect each other. While you assert that having a conscience is “god”, I’d just say that it’s empathy. I’d far rather live in a society that works out the right thing to do than one that listens to someone who claims to be the voice of a god he can’t prove exists.

         Your typically Christian dire warnings of all bad things coming from a lack of your god are not born out in reality. We could go off on a long conversation where I list all the incidences of child sex abuse within religious organisations and then you can do the old chestnut of claiming Hitler and Stalin were atheists (Hitler definitely wasn’t and Stalin trained as a priest) but that would be pointless. The fact is that there are many more good people who don’t believe in any gods and many more good god-believers than there are “bad” people.

         Also, you didn’t answer my question… “Do you think that these same people would be willing to come and teach a values class without any reference to their religious faith? That way, the classes would be welcoming and inclusive to all children and families and there would be no reason for anyone to opt-out. What a wonderful, truly unbiased, altruistic, community involvement that would be! If you don’t think they would do that, why not?”

3. The problem for secular people is that they don’t realise they are forcing their own beliefs on our children e.g. the theory of evolution. In our schools children must believe this theory or fail the exam.
   There is no moral vacuum. Take away Christianity and what are we left with? The morals of secularism, which apparently evolve (into what?) and are situational and relative i.e. make up your morals to suit yourself. Words like tolerance and inclusiveness lose their true meaning under secularism e.g. no debate is allowed on certain topics and if a person questions the prevailing secular narrative then they are vilified and excluded from the public square – try debating homosexuality in public.
   Secularism provides every reason to be immoral and is bereft of any point of reference with which to condemn any choice. Any secularist who lives a moral life is simply living better than his philosophy warrants. There is no moral point of reference which is logically prescriptive and coherent.
   If God doesn’t exist then everything is justifiable.
   A secular person considers himself to be god because there is no-one/nothing wiser or better than himself.
   The secular man is one who confronted even with Christ, turns away to to consider the judgement of his own conscience and to hear the voice of his own reason … he sees himself as free, independent , lovely, powerful, rational, responsible , brave,heroic and attractive. His original incarnation was as Lucifer.
   Regards
   John McCoskrie

   • Hi John,

     Thanks for commenting. However, I think that you’re misrepresenting a few things.

     Darwin’s theory of evolution should be taught because it was a significant step in scientific discovery. All modern knowledge of biology is built on it. Darwin didn’t get everything right and our understanding of evolution has changed. But this doesn’t mean that evolution is a belief. Evolution happens. That’s just a fact. The recent outbreak of COVID-19 is an example of evolution in action. I need to clarify that a scientific theory is not a “hunch” about something, it is a well-understood explanation for how it works. That’s why we still have Gravitational theory even though we know gravity exists. Modern evolutionary theory, explains “how” evolution works, it’s not a question of whether or not it happens.

     No, there is no moral vacuum. When we take away the teaching of divine commands based on your particular faith, we are left with personal responsibility for our actions and we are required to justify how we treat others to ensure that we live in the kind of society we want. If you think that you wouldn’t have any morals without your religious beliefs, then you are the one with the problem. It is a personal issue for you that should not be projected onto the rest of us, who get along just fine without god-beliefs. Perhaps you just lack empathy?

     Debate is allowed on any topic. You just have to be able to provide evidence to support your stance. If you lack evidence, you will be dismissed. You can try debating homosexuality but you’ll fail because it has been observed in virtually every mammalian species. So all you are left with is your faith-based beliefs, which most other people don’t share.

     Secularism (in education) provides no reasons at all to be immoral. It doesn’t provide any reasons to be moral either. That is not it’s purpose. Secular education was legislated by Christians at a time when NZ was 95% Christian in order to prevent competing religious groups targeting children. Other people do not need your religious beliefs in order to be moral people. And we certainly don’t need them in order to teach our children to be moral.

     The moral point of reference you have is your subjective belief in your god. You got this from your subjective understanding of subjective stories in an old book. Without belief in divine command, we get our morality from thinking for ourselves. By observing what works and what doesn’t. If you think that we need Christian morality, feel free to tell me what values we can’t teach children without your religion.

     “If God doesn’t exist then everything is justifiable.” – Is it? Because it’s not for me. Is that really true for you?

     “A secular person considers himself to be god” – No we don’t. You just needed to ask.

     “The secular man is one who confronted even with Christ, turns away to to consider the judgement of his own conscience and to hear the voice of his own reason … he sees himself as free, independent , lovely, powerful, rational, responsible , brave,heroic and attractive. His original incarnation was as Lucifer”

     That sort of arrogant, childish nonsense is why we don’t want evangelicals in schools. We actually do want children to grow up to be “free, independent , lovely, powerful, rational, responsible , brave,heroic and attractive”. You are free to cower and debase yourself before an imaginary god who will seek revenge if you don’t love him back but I aspire to higher standards. I’m not into an abusive relationship like that. Your god is not “good” enough for me. You have likely had a lifetime of religious indoctrination started by the kind of lessons that I’d like to see removed.

4. If you as a believer in “Evolutionary Naturalism” might propose The Universe merely began with a BIG BANG Dave, even a primary school student with a basic understanding of science might put to you:

   1) So what blew up if there was Nothing there?
   2) Where did the Vast amounts of Energy come from ?
   3) As we know over time all energy moves to an equilibrium throughout the universe – Hot to cold, High concentration to lesser concentration we can rationally state energy cannot be Eternal.

   As Nothing can create?
   Well clearly – Absolutely nothing Dave – There is absolute Evidence there is a CREATOR.

   As Bill Gates stated DNA is 1000 times better and more complex than any computer language we (The World’s Highly intelligent, well educated computer programmers) have ever designed.
   Yet we also intelligent humans accept the assurance that this made itself in a muddy pool of water.
   (Now that Sounds as likely and as scientific as Mohammed’s assurance that “the sunsets in a muddy pool of water doesn’t it?” )

   We cannot observe “Evolution” Animals or Species changing “Kinds”, or New information being “Created” or gained . All we can observe is “mutation by the loss of information”.
   Artificial or Natural selection.
   That does in no way prove Microbes to Human evolution.

   If fact what we know and observe in nature is that nature is going the other way
   that species are being lost from the once large gene pool all over the world
   and there is a net loss of information.

   The tree of life Darwin Proposed is being pruned of 1000 Species a year.
   ( and no that is not the result of perceived climate change).

   Where you might think Secular Humanism and Atheism is not dangerous Dave.
   I and Absolutely disagree and a short look at History proves it.
   What is wrong when everybody does what seems right in their own eyes?

   Last century just short of 200 Million people – Mostly law abiding innocent
   poor Christians, Jews, Gpysies, Homosexuals, different cultural or ethnic groups
   and handicapped or physically challenged, (and in Australia Aboriginal people
   who were by evolutionists considered sub-human and could be shot and murdered
   up to 1950). 200 MILLION PEOPLE were murdered by your Evolution believing
   Secular Humanist often communist states.
   Stalin 55 Million, Lenin 35 Million, Mao 45 Million, Hitler 22 Million, Polpot 3.5 Million
   and so it goes on.

   The Bible states “The Wages of SIN (our Selfish Indepence Nature) IS DEATH.”

   We can see that it is in fact true in even our recent history.

   You may think Dave like many evolutionists that ISIS slaughtering masses of weak,
   poor people in the Middle East is merely ‘Evolutionary advancement to be celebrated’
   as the fittest and fastest swords in the Middle East clear more biological space
   for themselves and the fittest survive, Merely Evolution at work,
   but the rest of us real with horror at the world your proposing where “Everyone
   does what seems right in their own eyes”.

   In fact what your proposing is a world where The Rich and The Powerful decide
   and as we know “All Power Corrupts and Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely””.

   I believe that All children need to learn Wisdom and Moral guidance, courage and Absolutes
   To learn to say sorry, aploguise, seek forgiveness, to mend their relationships
   rather than seek to justify unacceptable behavior.
   That this will lead to solid friendships, continuous employment, loving marriages and
   a rewarding life – Regardless of whether they decide to become Christ follower.

   Christ is (As Time Magazine declared) The Most influential Person who ever
   lived of all time. We can learn from His Life, His Wisdom and His teaching
   regardless of whether we personally accept His claim to be part of God Himself
   Walking around in human flesh, come to show us a selfless life and pay the
   price to redeem us of the Sin we deserve to die for.

   Dave Stanton

   • The answer to all your questions about the origin of the universe is “I don’t know and neither do you”. There are some questions we will probably never be able to answer.

     You not knowing the answers does not mean “god did it”.

     There is not such thing as “kinds” outside of your imagination. We can’t observe mountains forming either but we understand how they form through plate tectonics. We are literally observing evolution in action right now. Where did you think COVID-19 came from? Why do you think that last years flu vaccine doesn’t work on this years flu?

     Species are disappearing largely through human intervention. You can’t expect to watch evolution happen in larger animals.

     You not understanding genetics or evolution does not mean “god did it”.

     Your subjective faith in a god who gives you morals is not objective morality. If you lack the ability to know right from wrong without your god, then the problem lies with you and your lack of empathy.

     Hitler was Catholic, as were the majority of Germans in the 1930s. He spoke of doing gods work, his soldiers swore an oath to god. The Vatican even signed a treaty with Hitler in 1933. Stalin attended a seminary! Someone doing bad things does not mean that their religion is false if they claim to do it in the name of their god, such as the Christians who killed thousands of Muslims in Rwanda in 1994. Likewise, someone doing good things does not mean their god claims are true. I could list all the deaths through Christian aggression but that would be pointless and the numbers are irrelevant to the truth of the claims.

     // The Bible states “The Wages of SIN (our Selfish Indepence Nature) IS DEATH.”

     I don’t consider the Bible to have any moral authority.

5. I repeat the affirmation that as scientifically NOTHING CAN CREATE NOTHING FROM NOTHING – THEREFORE THE UNIVERSE HAD A CREATOR. As a believer in science you are in denial of the truth, logic and reason if you don’t accept that is TRUE Dave?

   You are suggesting that our education system should be based on science yet as a first premise are seeking that a scientific impossibility be accepted and a religious idea and belief about origins which is totally unscientific should be adopted as a founding premise and all other beliefs be rejected. Do you see your hypocrisy in this?

   Further you are premising that the most advanced computer language in the universe know to man designed and wrote itself into logical functional life forming code DNA – Yet we know and can see that even the smallest living cell bacteria is organized like a city of logic, function, correction and interaction
   Yet like an ostrict with his head in the sand you deny the possibility of their being an intelligent designer.

   Hitler may have been born into a Catholic family, which the majority of German people were, but He Swore that His primary objective was to, like yourself rid the World of THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.
   Yet the first three concern how we treat and honour God and the following seven how we live and treat each other and God’s Commandments although radical in their time have stood the test of time, despite all legal knowledge and study have never been replaced or invalidated.
   Stalin died shaking his fist at heaven and certain judgement.

   We do need objective law – We can’t decide which side of the road we prefer to drive on, because i prefer the right side and it seems right and best to me! No more than we can decide for ourselves – It’s okay to steal because “hey they were born into a rich family and have more money than me”. I might empathize with the needs of my kids or neighbour but it doesn’t give me the right to “rob and steal from passing caravans and Camel traders heading to Mecca”, murdering the traders in the process.

   No more than I can desire the pretty woman next door, because I think I can do a better job if keeping her happy and satisfied than the husband whom she is with now. You see Dave, I soon decide everything my flesh desires is justifiable, ‘right’ (At least for me) and ‘good’ – Everyone starts to do what seems right or justifiable or acceptable in their own eyes. – Look back on your own life and I’m sure you can see examples of when you have done that, excused yourself?, justified an action?, permitted a self indulgence?

   We all each one of us Dave think we are good and “Righteous in our own eyes” until presented by God’s objective law, then we see how far short of perfection that we fall.

   Biblical Prophesy authenticates the Bible as being TRUTH. Whether it be GOD Telling ABRAHAM that through His seed (Issac/Christ) would all the (Gentile) nations of The World be blessed or Daniel’s prophesying of the progression and actions of The AGE OF THE EMPIRES – Babylon (Gold) , Medes/ Persians (Silver), Greeks (Bronze), Romans (Iron), or to be more topical JOHN’s Prophesy in REVELATION that one day everyone would be offered “a Mark (or chip) on the Forehead and Right hand that anyone without the Mark would not be able to buy and sell, travel and trade”.
   These things are foretold that you might know The Words of God is TRUTH and the message of God is true.

   In this country we soon forget that Kindergartens, Schools, hospitals, plunket, universities, Women getting the vote and NZ becoming the world’s first democracy in 1893, hospuses, food banks, and o many more organizations which are too many to mention here were all started by loving caring Christians – Yet you want stop anything promoting even the ethics and values of Christianity to be taught in our schools – Why? Are you worried that kids, even your kids might come return your property they stole (the $50 from your wallet) and tell you they are sorry?

   Dave

   • I’m going to leave your rant here as an example of the kind of people that are teaching bible classes but I’ve deleted the other two that you copied and pasted on other pages. If you struggle to understand why we can be moral without your religion, then you need to examine your own personal values. Perhaps you just lack empathy.

6. Misplaced “Empathy” has led to ‘Subjective morality’ – Where one murders ones child, or elderly mother because you think their life not worth living.
   You can quickly see Dave how ones “feelings” or “opinion” or “Empathy” can lead you to justify killing a large portion of society – The Mentally challenged, Physically handi-capped, Suicidal, Depressed, Terminally ill, Homeless and soon we become like Stalin or Hitler – It’s The Jews, The Thieving Gypsies, The Homosexuals or The Muslims in Northern China.
   Every Secular Humanist Atheist society has headed the same way – Russia, China, North Korea, East Germany, Cambodia, Cuba or Albania.

   – Yet your greatest fear Dave, is that the Christian values of love, care, grace and forgiveness might change people’s lives in your local school?

   REALLY?

   Dave

   • Your understanding of morality and your belief in a god is also subjective. That’s why people also do bad things in the name of their religion. We do not need your religion to promote good values.

7. You think yourself a “Good Teacher” Dave – But as Jesus Proclaimed “Only God is Good (Pure, Righteous and Holy)”
   I’m sure He will show you this in time.

   • You’re entitled to your own religious beliefs. You’re just not welcome to teach them in secular state primary schools.

8. So let me get this straight Dave. You think it is quite acceptable for a National Government with secular humanist leanings to make a deal enshrined in law to promise to close the schools for half an hour a week, a week (we are not talking every day here) and allow Christian values education so as to get agreement to take over the Christian church established educational assets – Land, property, buildings, teaching staff, yet some sixty to eighty years later TOTALLY RENEG ON IT’S END OF THE DEAL? Echoes of “Honour the Treaty” reverberate down the ages. You attitude Dave once again exposes the dangers of a subjective morality – Any behavior no matter how despicable can be excused, expedient and permissible. Everyone does ‘What seems right in their own eyes’ . This is what quickly happens when we have no objective basis for deciding what is right and what is wrong.

   • Your understanding of the legislation is completely wrong.